Shinobi Life Online

Shinobi Life Online Category => Shinobi Life Online Suggestions => Topic started by: Manuster on December 30, 2017, 18:35:31

Title: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on December 30, 2017, 18:35:31
Not every jutsu is the same.

However, in game, every time a jutsu is cast, you end up with the same result.

Currently, the more a jutsu is used, the better a user gets at it. However this only means that every person with a maxed out fireball will have the exact same fireball. A huge fireball the size of a house that obliterates everyone in its way. This may be useful in war, but what if you want to be discreet? Or hide how powerful you are in order to not become a target? Or you know someone is following you but you don't want them to know exactly how powerful you are? Or what if you only need a modest sized fireball but you don't want to sacrifice damage?

My suggestion is that as a user increases their skill at a single jutsu, their control over every aspect of the jutsu increases. You will be able to use a house sized fireball and obliterate a dozen noobs but also use a concentrated beam of fire at a single target. But if you use a concentrated beam of fire, shouldn't it be more powerful?

Well lets take the fireball for example. A weak, narrow, short flame is released when a noob uses it, but a wide, far reaching, powerful flame is released when a master uses it.

My suggestion is that when you cast a fireball, you have a choice to change;

However, increasing one of these values will come at the cost of another. For example, if one were to use a wide, tall, far reaching flame, there would be almost no damage caused. But if one were to make a flame that were several pixels wide and high, it would be alot more powerful. You could make the jutsu more chakra efficient (use less chakra) but you would be left with a pretty weak and tiny flame.

You basically have the option to 'toggle' between these values. However, as you get BETTER at the jutsu (by using it more), you can get more 'points' to toggle with. Meaning that at a master level, you can choose a wide, high flame but also a narrow, far reaching one with maximum intensity and maximum chakra effeciency. (You do not have to use all the 'points' available so you can reduce the height of the jutsu if you want and keep everything else maxed out.)

I've made a little table to illustrate the idea better - all the values are random and off the top of my head.

Both Noobs have 222 "points"

Fireball Jutsu at NoobLevel Option A



Fireball Jutsu at Noob Level Option B


The same jutsu has been cast with 2 different results.

Maybe at a master level, there could be 10000 'points' to play around with. And maybe, just maybe, no cap to each individual attribute. An illustration of what a master at fireball jutsu could do with 10000 points;

Fireball Jutsu at Master Level


A fireball like Madara's

Fireball Jutsu at Master Level


This time, you haven't used all 10000 points. This may be intentional. You have the option to hold back your strength, which is a layer of the game that is not otherwise present. Every fireball is max strength when you use it, even if you're only training with someone far weaker than you.

At the end, every single fireball jutsu will be different, because they are used by different people with people prioritising different attributes to the jutsu. By extension, every single jutsu will be different. The system is very very similar to jutsu creation in that sense, but there is no room for abuse, and it doesnt even need to be monitored.

A point system also allows for a measurable way to calculate how much better someone gets at a jutsu.  We know that every time a jutsu is used in combat you get better at it. Spamming fireballs into a wall won't improve it but using it against someone else will. With this system, every time a jutsu makes contact/affects an opponent, you could gain one 'point' to distribute amongst its attributes. So a master who has used the jutsu 10000 times will have 10000 points and a soft cap could be introduced at this point so instead of every successful use adding one point, every 10 successful uses add a point to be distributed.

Jutsu will be assigned 'points' out of battle. In your menu, you will have the option to save 3 presets for each jutsu and name them as you like. Once you cast the jutsu normally, you will be able to press any of 3 keys to select which preset you use. (This shouldn't affect the pace of battle, these keys will be chosen by the user and will not be keys that are assigned to anything else and they just have to be tapped once, after the normal handsigns)

Fireball Jutsu:
1. Wide and long [H]
2. Narrow and effecient [G]
3. Holding back [F]


Assuming the keys F, G and H are unused, to cast a fireball you have saved into slot 1, you would type in the normal fireball jutsu and then H immediatly. If you don't press H, your character will simply hold the last sign, ready to cast it.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on December 31, 2017, 01:33:23
So you want to give every jutsu in the game stats/ I'm not aposed to the idea but it seams like a lot of work and as far as chakra efficiency go's I think that's should happen on the character stats side instead of the jutsu.

This is a good system for the change in form skill of jutsu!! It dose leave out the effects of jutsu clash and  collaboration. And that is a stat the jutsu will need to have!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on December 31, 2017, 07:54:58
Quote from: NinjaMirage on December 31, 2017, 01:33:23
So you want to give every jutsu in the game stats/ I'm not aposed to the idea but it seams like a lot of work and as far as chakra efficiency go's I think that's should happen on the character stats side instead of the jutsu.

This is a good system for the change in form skill of jutsu!! It dose leave out the effects of jutsu clash and  collaboration. And that is a stat the jutsu will need to have!!

Every game in the jutsu already has stats.

Your wind bullet travels at a certain speed and is of certain size. Your earth dome is of a certain size, thickness and lasts a fixed amount of time. These stats already exist. I'm just suggesting we can alter them.

A faster wind bullet but the same size. A thicker, smaller earth dome that lasts twice as long...
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on December 31, 2017, 19:21:28
Like I said it's a good Idea but it would likely not be as dynamic as you are suggesting. Also what skill should allow you to alter the jutsu this way? How much training should be required to tweak these values? It open up a large can of worms when you get in to altering jutsu stats. What your suggesting is several different stat values you can chose from if every jutsu planed had 3 different variations on stats that's 375 stat values that need to be programmed!! Then the clash and collaboration system is 3 times as complicated as well!! As an expansion in the future I would be extremely excited to see this kind of detail!! But let's get a playable game first!! Then tweek what we have!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on December 31, 2017, 19:56:09
Quote from: NinjaMirage on December 31, 2017, 19:21:28
Like I said it's a good Idea but it would likely not be as dynamic as you are suggesting. Also what skill should allow you to alter the jutsu this way? How much training should be required to tweak these values? It open up a large can of worms when you get in to altering jutsu stats. What your suggesting is several different stat values you can chose from if every jutsu planed had 3 different variations on stats that's 375 stat values that need to be programmed!! Then the clash and collaboration system is 3 times as complicated as well!! As an expansion in the future I would be extremely excited to see this kind of detail!! But let's get a playable game first!! Then tweek what we have!!


when you learn a jutsu you start with some random value, 1 or 5 or 10, idk its not up to me to decide

who mentioned any training? every time you use the jutsu successfully, you gain a point.

USING THE JUTSU IS TRAINING IT - which perfectly explains why you have more control over the jutsu's attributes.

"A point system also allows for a measurable way to calculate how much better someone gets at a jutsu.  We know that every time a jutsu is used in combat you get better at it. Spamming fireballs into a wall won't improve it but using it against someone else will. With this system, every time a jutsu makes contact/affects an opponent, you could gain one 'point' to distribute amongst its attributes."


And I beg to differ. It will be very dynamic. Take a single fireball jutsu, you can turn it into a laser like beam of concentrated power or a wide, high wall that sweeps out several opponents or a medium size ball that uses all of your chakra but at the benefit of very high damage.
.
If you're fighting an opponent who keeps dodging to the left, use a fireball jutsu with high width. If you're fighting an opponent who keeps jumping, use a fireball jutsu with high height. If you're much better at aiming at everyone else, you could use the laser.

Honestly, the only limit to the jutsu is the user, I've named 5 completely different applications of one, very basic jutsu.


How do you think the jutsu are coded? The fireball jutsu has a damage component. Obviously. The game is 3D, it obviously has a width, height and length. The jutsu consumes chakra, what's new about that? Chakra efficeincy.

And there you get the 5 'attributes' for fireball.

Width, height, length, damage per second, chakra per second

What's new or complicated about any of those? They already exist in the code for fireball.

And you can easily deduce what values would exist for other jutsu, you're a smart guy.

Fireball already has numbers for its dimensions, its damage and its chakra consumption. Instead of all of those increasing as we get better at it, why doesn't the user get to prioritise how they want it to improve?
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on December 31, 2017, 22:33:18
You act like these jutsu animations just happen when you hit a key!! It takes time to program the animations and stat values for a single jutsu!! Let Alone multiple animations and dynamic stat values that shift the animations on key command!! I like the idea it's just not realistic to implement!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 01, 2018, 16:20:16
Quote from: NinjaMirage on December 31, 2017, 22:33:18
You act like these jutsu animations just happen when you hit a key!! It takes time to program the animations and stat values for a single jutsu!! Let Alone multiple animations and dynamic stat values that shift the animations on key command!! I like the idea it's just not realistic to implement!!

Multiple animations? It's the same jutsu with different dimensions. That's literally all the animation changes. The only difference in coding an earth dome and a bigger earth dome is that one is bigger. It has bigger dimensions, everything else is exactly the same.... Whether it's width, height or length, it's very simple to do.

As for the stat value changes, that's literally already planned -  as you use a jutsu it causes more damage and uses less chakra. Even without my system, that was already going to be an 'issue.'


All I'm suggesting is that instead of these changes being automatic, allow the user to control them.

Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on January 01, 2018, 19:17:41
I must have missed somthing then because I thought all jutsu were going to have bass stats effected by character stats, and skill level at the 6 major skill trees!! This is much easier then programming every jutsu with a cast counter of sorts and adjusting damage by use!! The abuility to change the jutsu animations is not a simple scailing issue.. it will work for some like earth dome or wall!! But for chidori, fire breath and wind bullet its will not look right, and lead to glitches!

Also it's the characters skill with chakra that makes the difference in the jutsus effects! The jutsu dose not get stronger with use!!

For example how many fire ball jutsu did Sasuke shoot out over water when learning the jutsu? The power of the first fireball was the same as the one he used on kakashi in the team 7 bell training!! Only after he trained in chakra control with tree climbing did the power of these jutsu increase!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 01, 2018, 20:32:44
Quote from: NinjaMirage on January 01, 2018, 19:17:41
I must have missed somthing then because I thought all jutsu were going to have bass stats effected by character stats, and skill level at the 6 major skill trees!! This is much easier then programming every jutsu with a cast counter of sorts and adjusting damage by use!! The abuility to change the jutsu animations is not a simple scailing issue.. it will work for some like earth dome or wall!! But for chidori, fire breath and wind bullet its will not look right, and lead to glitches!

Also it's the characters skill with chakra that makes the difference in the jutsus effects! The jutsu dose not get stronger with use!!

For example how many fire ball jutsu did Sasuke shoot out over water when learning the jutsu? The power of the first fireball was the same as the one he used on kakashi in the team 7 bell training!! Only after he trained in chakra control with tree climbing did the power of these jutsu increase!!

Not every jutsu gets bigger when they get more powerful. The 5 'attributes' I mentioned for fireball  just for FIREBALL not for every jutsu.

Chidori
-damage
-chakra consumption

Earth Wall
-damage taken before breaking
-height
-width
-thickness
-length of time jutsu is active
-chakra consumption

Wind Bullet
-speed
-damage
-area (h x w)
-chakra consumption


And dude, as lovely as an idea as 'chakra control' would be. It isn't practical ingame. Which of these 2 makes more ingame sense?

The player who spends the most time running on walls will have the best fireball jutsu?
Or the player who has used fireball jutsu the most has the best fireball jutsu?

Chakra control would be unbalancing and would completely remove the point of training jutsu.

Jutsu should be trained individually. Not that you run around on water and ALL your jutsu are better. I understand the logic and explanation behind it, but it hinders gameplay. It would be alot more rewarding to have each jutsu trained individually.


Saying "using jutsu doesnt improve it is like saying running doesnt make you faster or cooking more doesnt make you a better chef"


Also, chakra control is used to learn jutsu. I.e. rasengan.

After learning rasengan, practice made rasengan better.

Chakra control -> Learn Jutsu
Practice -> Improve Jutsu

My entire idea is based on improving jutsu.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on January 01, 2018, 21:21:12
Quote
Saying "using jutsu doesnt improve it is like saying running doesnt make you faster or cooking more doesnt make you a better chef"
These are skills not jutsu!!! Sorry but your comparing different things!!
Using a rifle 100 times dose not make that rifle any better!! Or using a flamethrower 100 times won't make it any hotter or have more range!! Your skill with these weapons is what gets better after 100 times not the weapon themselves!!

But jutsu can be improved with skills unlike wepones!
But you want to train 125  different jutsu to master rank!!

I want to train 1 characters to master rank and then learn jutsu and train corresponding skills bassed on your rank!!

You tell me what makes more sence for game play!!

 And keep in mind that this is an RPG a MMORPG!!  Your system of training jutsu is fine if you're going to have it be like a ghost recon kind of the game where it's an action arena where you go around in all you do is fight and upgrade your weapons to do more damage and have more accuracy.

 In MMORPG there's usually two elements there's character development and equipment development!!  The world lore
, Character stats and development, and team play are what make MMORPGs good!!

 just because all we've had for the past three years is a half assed deathmatch, shouldn't make you loose sight of the End  Goal !!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 01, 2018, 23:37:23
If the game has a "chakra system", chakra control is needed for the foundation of jutsu. All chakra control is being able to mold and manipulate your chakra effectively to avoid over using the desire amount needed for the jutsu.

But what you are mentioning Manuster is, "Shape Transformation", Which falls under chakra control. There is Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation, which both falls under chakra control.

Ways to train chakra control is the Tree Climbing and Water Surface Walking exercises, which can be apply here, if you want "realism" right?

As I told you before, it's not that your idea doesn't make sense, I agree with some stuff but if you don't have a logical way of how it works, it can't be applied.

So before you train a jutsu, you must train to control your chakra before you go off spamming fireballs haha. Of course it makes sense to train your jutsu but a jutsu can only be mastered to a certain point, which is why I told you other jutsu were made from the base jutsu like the fireball. It's not hard to understand the basics.

Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 00:20:40
Quote from: NinjaMirage on January 01, 2018, 21:21:12
Quote
Saying "using jutsu doesnt improve it is like saying running doesnt make you faster or cooking more doesnt make you a better chef"
These are skills not jutsu!!! Sorry but your comparing different things!!
Using a rifle 100 times dose not make that rifle any better!! Or using a flamethrower 100 times won't make it any hotter or have more range!! Your skill with these weapons is what gets better after 100 times not the weapon themselves!!

But jutsu can be improved with skills unlike wepones!
But you want to train 125  different jutsu to master rank!!

I want to train 1 characters to master rank and then learn jutsu and train corresponding skills bassed on your rank!!

You tell me what makes more sence for game play!!

 And keep in mind that this is an RPG a MMORPG!!  Your system of training jutsu is fine if you're going to have it be like a ghost recon kind of the game where it's an action arena where you go around in all you do is fight and upgrade your weapons to do more damage and have more accuracy.

 In MMORPG there's usually two elements there's character development and equipment development!!  The world lore
, Character stats and development, and team play are what make MMORPGs good!!

 just because all we've had for the past three years is a half assed deathmatch, shouldn't make you loose sight of the End  Goal !!

you're comparing jutsu to WEAPONS ?????

Jutsu are TECHNIQUES of manipulating chakra. they require chakra control to learn and take practice to master.

whats so difficult about that???

how can you suggest that anyone with masterful chakra control can learn any jutsu and be a master without any practice?? thats ridiculous and lazy

practice will always determine how good you are at the jutsu.
chakra control determines your ability to use it.

Quote from: Sjones on January 01, 2018, 23:37:23
If the game has a "chakra system", chakra control is needed for the foundation of jutsu. All chakra control is being able to mold and manipulate your chakra effectively to avoid over using the desire amount needed for the jutsu.

But what you are mentioning Manuster is, "Shape Transformation", Which falls under chakra control. There is Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation, which both falls under chakra control.

Ways to train chakra control is the Tree Climbing and Water Surface Walking exercises, which can be apply here, if you want "realism" right?

As I told you before, it's not that your idea doesn't make sense, I agree with some stuff but if you don't have a logical way of how it works, it can't be applied.

So before you train a jutsu, you must train to control your chakra before you go off spamming fireballs haha. Of course it makes sense to train your jutsu but a jutsu can only be mastered to a certain point, which is why I told you other jutsu were made from the base jutsu like the fireball. It's not hard to understand the basics.



Chakra efficiency has nothing to do with "shape transformation".
The amount of damage a jutsu does has nothing to do with "shape transformation."
The amount of time a jutsu is active for has nothing to do with ""shape transformation."

This is not the anime.

As for your second point;

Quote from: Manuster on January 01, 2018, 20:32:44
Also, chakra control is used to learn jutsu. I.e. rasengan.

After learning rasengan, practice made rasengan better.

Chakra control -> Learn Jutsu
Practice -> Improve Jutsu

My entire idea is based on improving jutsu.


@NinjaMirage
@Sjones

We all saw Naruto improving his chakra control to LEARN rasengan. That's fine.

To improve it, did we see him go through those same exercises? Did we see him grind it before he could manipulate it's size, intensity, chakra cost?

No. He practiced it.

I'll say it again.

Quote from: Manuster on January 01, 2018, 20:32:44
Chakra control -> Learn Jutsu
Practice -> Improve Jutsu

My entire idea is based on improving jutsu.


Jutsu are techniques - all techniques take a certain level of CONTROL to learn (how to ride a bike, play the piano, karate, how to juggle)

If you have perfect control over your body you will learn any of those easier than someone else who doesn't.

But you will still have to practice to master them.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 00:36:47
"Chakra efficiency has nothing to do with "shape transformation". ", I said, "All chakra control is being able to mold and manipulate your chakra effectively to avoid over using the desire amount needed for the jutsu."

"The amount of damage a jutsu does has nothing to do with "shape transformation."", I was meaning for this,
"the width of the flame         100            10m wide
the length flame                 50              5m long
the height of the flame       17              1.7m high"

Which falls under "Shape Transformation", which falls under, "chakra control".
"Shape transformation is an advanced form of chakra control that involves changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range, and purpose of a technique."

"We all saw Naruto improving his chakra control to LEARN rasengan. That's fine.

To improve it, did we see him go through those same exercises? Did we see him grind it before he could manipulate it's size, intensity, chakra cost?

No. He practiced it.", Never said that you don't have to practice it to master it. I said, "So before you train a jutsu, you must train to control your chakra before you go off spamming fireballs haha. Of course it makes sense to train your jutsu but a jutsu can only be mastered to a certain point".






Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 00:47:45
But back at your point about changing the jutsu to how you want based on your skill of the jutsu. You really think in a  middle of a battle you wanna be changing stats?

You have different jutsus for different scenarios, The basic "fireball", is a mid range attack but it has two options in the narutoworld, 1 fast moving fireball to hit a target which you lose control over it onces it has been released so that means it can't be constant like the "firebreath" version which you have full control over the duration and size.

But if you want to f#ck up a army and you have mastery over firestyle you think someone wants to be changing their fireball stats into something like the, "Great Fire Annihilation" when you can just use the jutsu with that power and call it a day?
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 00:50:35
It's more realistic and it gives us more options in jutsu, yes it will be hard on the devs to create and balance jutsu but if you want realism you can't hold back.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 01:43:46
@Manuster
Quote
how can you suggest that anyone with masterful chakra control can learn any jutsu and be a master without any practice?? thats ridiculous and lazy

And yet it is cannon to the naruto universe and was astablisged early!!
Look at kakashi!! He has the sharingon that allowed him to analyze and copy the jutsu of others but he still needs the chakra control and skills to change the chakra nature and form!! He was able to copy the waterdragon jutsu with equal strength to the one zabuza used!! Even though it was not his jutsu and had never practiced it!! He could not copy the rasinshurakin or any KKG like wood style because he dose not have the skill needed for the combined form and nature transformation in the case of the rasangon or the combined nature transformations in the case of wood or ice style!! Jutsu are weapons!! They are special weapons designed for spacific uses!! But there still weapons!! When 2 players of equal skill use the same jutsu it dose not matter how has used it more!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Takoi on January 02, 2018, 01:51:51
Quote from: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 01:43:46
He could not copy the rasinshurakin or any KKG like wood style because he dose not have the skill needed for the combined form and nature transformation in the case of the rasangon or the combined nature transformations in the case of wood or ice style!!
Just saying- Kakashi wasn't able to copy the rasengan because the rasengan had no hand seals. Therefore Kakashi could not copy it physically. For the wood and ice he couldn't copy them because he did not have the KG. The reason he wasn't able to copy them wasn't chakra control, it was because he simply did not have the KG. Back to the rasengan though- Kakashi stated that he could not copy the rasengan with the sharingan, which is why Sasuke was not able to copy it. Kakashi said he had to physically learn how to do the rasengan the same as naruto did- he had no shortcuts (other than the fact that he could see the chakra).
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 01:56:13
Yes NinjaMirage, it's about the skill of the person, not the jutsu.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 01:57:48
Quote from: Takoi on January 02, 2018, 01:51:51
Quote from: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 01:43:46
He could not copy the rasinshurakin or any KKG like wood style because he dose not have the skill needed for the combined form and nature transformation in the case of the rasangon or the combined nature transformations in the case of wood or ice style!!
Just saying- Kakashi wasn't able to copy the rasengan because the rasengan had no hand seals. Therefore Kakashi could not copy it physically. For the wood and ice he couldn't copy them because he did not have the KG. The reason he wasn't able to copy them wasn't chakra control, it was because he simply did not have the KG. Back to the rasengan though- Kakashi stated that he could not copy the rasengan with the sharingan, which is why Sasuke was not able to copy it. Kakashi said he had to physically learn how to do the rasengan the same as naruto did- he had no shortcuts (other than the fact that he could see the chakra).

Which means chakra control is very important.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 02:00:34
Quote from: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 00:36:47
"Chakra efficiency has nothing to do with "shape transformation". ", I said, "All chakra control is being able to mold and manipulate your chakra effectively to avoid over using the desire amount needed for the jutsu."

"The amount of damage a jutsu does has nothing to do with "shape transformation."", I was meaning for this,
"the width of the flame         100            10m wide
the length flame                 50              5m long
the height of the flame       17              1.7m high"

Which falls under "Shape Transformation", which falls under, "chakra control".
"Shape transformation is an advanced form of chakra control that involves changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range, and purpose of a technique."

"We all saw Naruto improving his chakra control to LEARN rasengan. That's fine.

To improve it, did we see him go through those same exercises? Did we see him grind it before he could manipulate it's size, intensity, chakra cost?

No. He practiced it.", Never said that you don't have to practice it to master it. I said, "So before you train a jutsu, you must train to control your chakra before you go off spamming fireballs haha. Of course it makes sense to train your jutsu but a jutsu can only be mastered to a certain point".


THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT IMPROVING JUTSU - NOT LEARNING JUTSU


Quote from: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 00:47:45
But back at your point about changing the jutsu to how you want based on your skill of the jutsu. You really think in a  middle of a battle you wanna be changing stats?

You have different jutsus for different scenarios, The basic "fireball", is a mid range attack but it has two options in the narutoworld, 1 fast moving fireball to hit a target which you lose control over it onces it has been released so that means it can't be constant like the "firebreath" version which you have full control over the duration and size.

But if you want to f#ck up a army and you have mastery over firestyle you think someone wants to be changing their fireball stats into something like the, "Great Fire Annihilation" when you can just use the jutsu with that power and call it a day?

Please reread the original suggestion.

You do not assign attributes mid battle.

"Great Fire Annihilation" is a firebreath jutsu with high width, high height, low length, high damage.

Should I learn a completely new jutsu if I want it with low height? Or with low damage? What if I want a wider jutsu? What if I want a more concentrated flame? Or a high fire jutsu but not a wide one? What if I want a short, highly powerful beam of fire? Or a long distance fire breath with higher damage than normal?

What if I have earth dome, but I want a smaller earth dome? Or a bigger earth dome? Or a lower earth dome? Or an earth dome that lasts alot longer than normal? Or an earth dome that can withstand a lot more damage than normal?

What if I have a wind bullet, but I want it to be more or less powerful? Or I want it to travel further or slower?

What if I have an earth wall that I want to be higher? Or wider? Or thicker? Or stay up for longer?



Or any combination of any of these values?


Should I learn a completely new set of keys for each and every possible fire breath jutsu?
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 02:04:37
Quote from: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 01:43:46
@Manuster
Quote
how can you suggest that anyone with masterful chakra control can learn any jutsu and be a master without any practice?? thats ridiculous and lazy

And yet it is cannon to the naruto universe and was astablisged early!!
Look at kakashi!! He has the sharingon that allowed him to analyze and copy the jutsu of others but he still needs the chakra control and skills to change the chakra nature and form!! He was able to copy the waterdragon jutsu with equal strength to the one zabuza used!! Even though it was not his jutsu and had never practiced it!! He could not copy the rasinshurakin or any KKG like wood style because he dose not have the skill needed for the combined form and nature transformation in the case of the rasangon or the combined nature transformations in the case of wood or ice style!! Jutsu are weapons!! They are special weapons designed for spacific uses!! But there still weapons!! When 2 players of equal skill use the same jutsu it dose not matter how has used it more!!


Lol you're right.

I'm retarded.

Lets just copy the sharigan while we're at it because it's canon


And please stop saying jutsu are weapons. Weapons are weapons. The equivalent of weapons in the naruto world are...weapons.

"Jutsu (術, Literally meaning: skills/techniques)"

Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 02:07:33
You guys do realise that by making chakra control the be all and end all of how powerful a jutsu is, the game is literally just a grind to see who can get the best chakra control?

My system means that for a single jutsu you have literally countless alterations. My system makes the game both skill based and thought based.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:09:22
physical energy and spiritual energy= Chakra, To use Chakra for anything be it, walking on water, tree climbing, genjutsu, ninjutsu, medical ninjutsu, etc, you need "Chakra control", it's part of the foundation.

After Basic Chakra control is more advanced stuff like "Shape Transformation" for jutsus like the "Rasengan" (which requires high chakra control), then add that with, "Nature Transformation" which gives your chakra the element you have a affinity for, be it, water, fire, earth, lightning, wind or even a KG.

So these sound be the basics of skills before you can perform jutsus or techniques. It's all for the realism, if it's logical it should be added.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 02:12:25
KKG not aligned with kaguya s bloodline (I.e.the uchiha and huga)are unique skills of being able to activate 2 or even 3 natures at the same time- somthing kakashi dose not have the skill to do even though he can use 4 different natures!! Yamato explained this when naruto was training his wind change in nature!! Woodstyle is a skill that can only be learned by some!! Baruto
Spoiler: show
In Baruto it looks as though mowiki also can use woodstyle!! And there is no link to any relation to Yamato or the first hokage!!


However that is besides the point!! kakashi still was able to perform the same jutsu at equal skill to zabuza!! This is because of his skill of chakra control, nature, and form change!!

your forcusing on the pvp aspect of the game, @Manuster!! Yes everyone will want to naturally train chakra control to its highest degree!! And one v one this means that no one will be more powerful then anyone else!!
But How they use there jutsu in combat is the difference!! Eventually I agree this should include changing the form of a jutsu like the way Sasuke did with chidori, senbon,stream,and blade!! But for the sake of the programming team, character stats should come first!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 02:15:52
Quote from: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:09:22
physical energy and spiritual energy= Chakra, To use Chakra for anything be it, walking on water, tree climbing, genjutsu, ninjutsu, medical ninjutsu, etc, you need "Chakra control", it's part of the foundation.

After Basic Chakra control is more advanced stuff like "Shape Transformation" for jutsus like the "Rasengan" (which requires high chakra control), then add that with, "Nature Transformation" which gives your chakra the element you have a affinity for, be it, water, fire, earth, lightning, wind or even a KG.

So these sound be the basics of skills before you can perform jutsus or techniques. It's all for the realism, if it's logical it should be added.

I agree.

Chakra control is needed to learn a jutsu.

Now do you have any comments about improving and altering jutsu? Like my thread was about?


Quote from: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 02:12:25
KKG not aligned with kaguya s bloodline (I.e.the uchiha and huga)are unique skills of being able to activate 2 or even 3 natures at the same time- somthing kakashi dose not have the skill to do even though he can use 4 different natures!! Yamato explained this when naruto was training his wind change in nature!! Woodstyle is a skill that can only be learned by some!! Baruto
Spoiler: show
In Baruto it looks as though mowiki also can use woodstyle!! And there is no link to any relation to Yamato or the first hokage!!


However that is besides the point!! kakashi still was able to perform the same jutsu at equal skill to zabuza!! This is because of his skill of chakra control, nature, and form change!!

You do realise how stupidly OP that is? You can use ANY jutsu at a master level
 at your first go because you have master level chakra control?

How is that NOT a grind based game?!?!?!

Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:24:23
Chakra control is the first skill a shinobi needs to even perform a jutsu, so of course it is import for someone to master chakra control. But to your point of being able to change the jutsu stats, it ruins the option of justsus and makes the willingness to learn meaningless.

let's switch to a different jutsu of a different element, let's say you have a jutsu like a "water cannon", and you want to make a wave like jutsu, should there be a jutsu for that or do you want to change your jutsu for that one purpose ?
Having a library of jutsu to learn and use in battle sounds better, you can memorize a set of your favorite jutsus for combat. Which was the point of the game of being realistic.

Let's bring in a real world example, you have a road bike but you wanna go off road, will you change that bike to fit the scenario or get a vehicle to do the task? Not the best example haha
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:30:54
"You do realise how stupidly OP that is? You can use ANY jutsu at a master level
 at your first go because you have master level chakra control?

How is that NOT a grind based game?!?!?!"

Sharingan is not the best example for this because it's hard to understand it's functions but another example you can use is when Boruto learned the hand seals for a wind jutsu he saw Mitsuki using, Boruto didn't get it right until he kept practicing, which is even realistic in the Narutoverse.

But as I have never said you have to practice a jutsu to master it, I agree with that part, I just don't agree with changing the jutsu to what you want when you feel like. A new set jutsu for that should be made that is balanced for SLO.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 02:33:19
@Manuster it is OP!! The Sharingon is an OP KKG!! It allows someone to grind out and hone skills and spend little to no time practicing these skills when applied to a jutsu!!

Learning jutsu in game should take time based on the intelligents of your character!!  Like it did for every other character in naruto that was not an uchiha!!

Once you master a jutsu- finish learning it-
Then monipulatimg it could be a simple key stroke but the stats of the jutsu should not change- except for maybe a small reduction in chakra coast every time you use that jutsu!!

But the jutsu should be active and your skill in change in form should be higher then the needed rank for that jutsu! So if your jonin rank and you have mastered a chunin rank jutsu you can change the form of the jutsu to one other form!!

I might want to shrink earth dome to a chrushing size but it would be too OP!! Should I be able to adjust the damage of the jutsu?? No jutsu need to be set!! Just because we might want to do something with that jutsu dose not mean an indie developer can do it in his life time- I don't care how good they are!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 02:39:10
Quote from: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:24:23
Chakra control is the first skill a shinobi needs to even perform a jutsu, so of course it is import for someone to master chakra control. But to your point of being able to change the jutsu stats, it ruins the option of justsus and makes the willingness to learn meaningless.

let's switch to a different jutsu of a different element, let's say you have a jutsu like a "water cannon", and you want to make a wave like jutsu, should there be a jutsu for that or do you want to change your jutsu for that one purpose ?
Having a library of jutsu to learn and use in battle sounds better, you can memorize a set of your favorite jutsus for combat. Which was the point of the game of being realistic.

Let's bring in a real world example, you have a road bike but you wanna go off road, will you change that bike to fit the scenario or get a vehicle to do the task? Not the best example haha

Bruh.

Are you complaining that I'm making it too flexible?

Not only is that a matter of perspective. It would also be utterly impossible for someone to only learn 1 jutsu to fit all their combat needs. And if somebody wanted to, then isn't that their loss and your benefit? Isn't that their choice?

Second point is that since we're making it realistic, how many jutsu do we see Naruto using? Or Sasuke? Or...anyone else...? ;)

My third point is that, that is exactly why I only made 3 presets - you can have a maximum of 3 iterations of firebreath jutsu.

And my 4th point is that jutsu is not like a bike??? It's a technique. I literally quoted that. If you want to compare it, compare it to playing the piano and compare a single jutsu to a single song. Yeah, we have one "standard" way to play it, but everyone has their own desired remix, cover, version. And if people want to live with one "song" but with 3 covers then let them.


Erm.

Why are you guys acting like sharingan was the issue here? NinjaMirage did not mention sharingan.

Quote from: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 02:15:52
Quote from: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 02:12:25
However that is besides the point!! kakashi still was able to perform the same jutsu at equal skill to zabuza!! This is because of his skill of chakra control, nature, and form change!!

You do realise how stupidly OP that is? You can use ANY jutsu at a master level
 at your first go because you have master level chakra control?

How is that NOT a grind based game?!?!?!

You see, no sharingan was mentioned. The issue is chakra control being tied with ones ability to master jutsu.

THAT is what is stupidly OP, not sharingan (i mean it is but I wasnt talkign about it). Don't blame the poor red eyes of sharingan, they get enough shit as it is.

My issue is with chakra control. My post was in response to chakra control. I actually don't know what u guys are responding to lol
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:40:01
All i'm saying is, your system takes away the RPG part of the game, if there is only a few jutsus to learn and master for every element that takes away the joy of learning, training and memorizing the jutsu. We need multiple jutsus to learn to get us busy.

NinjaMirage's organization is, "Jutsu Hunter", what jutsu can he hunt lol?

It's not a bad idea but it wouldn't work for SLO.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on January 02, 2018, 02:48:05
Quote from: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:40:01
All i'm saying is, your system takes away the RPG part of the game, if there is only a few jutsus to learn and master for every element that takes away the joy of learning, training and memorizing the jutsu. We need multiple jutsus to learn to get us busy.

NinjaMirage's organization is, "Jutsu Hunter", what jutsu can he hunt lol?

It's not a bad idea but it wouldn't work for SLO.

Wtf

My idea literally adds to the training, learning and mastering of a jutsu.

You have a single jutsu that YOU can tweak to your desired level of perfection. I've removed the linear scale of jutsu and granted each individual their own way to "master" a single jutsu. There is literally no perfect version of each jutsu. Do you realise how diverse that is? A single jutsu has been given limitless iterations!

Instead of grinding to get the best version of a jutsu you have to experiment, use and plan it! And once you find your perfect combination then you have the knowledge that literally no one else has that exact same firebreath jutsu! How is that not more rewarding that "oh golly, I've grinded chakra control more than anyone else"
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 02:56:16
"Look at kakashi!! He has the sharingon that allowed him to analyze and copy the jutsu of others but he still needs the chakra control and skills to change the chakra nature and form!! He was able to copy the waterdragon jutsu with equal strength to the one zabuza used!! Even though it was not his jutsu and had never practiced it!! "

He mentioned the sharingan.

"Are you complaining that I'm making it too flexible?

Not only is that a matter of perspective. It would also be utterly impossible for someone to only learn 1 jutsu to fit all their combat needs. And if somebody wanted to, then isn't that their loss and your benefit? Isn't that their choice?"

It can be flexible but every jutsu has a limit just like in Naruto. I gave you an idea of how it can work.
I said something like the fireball should have a limit to size and length but the user should be in control, Let's say you want a bigger fire ball than normal but it has a set size, you should be able to charge it and press once to release when ready. It will make you focus on the using the jutsu more in combat than just spamming it. The basic of the jutsu will be good but if you want to add a little fuck you to it, then make it a little bigger but if you really want to say fuck you, then you got a jutsu for that haha.

An example of a jutsu having it's limit is the chidori, it's short range. You know how Sasuke made it a long range? He made multiple new jutsus based on it for different scenarios, like the, "Chidori Senbon" for long wide range attacks and "Chidori Sharp Spear" for long range accurate attacks.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on January 02, 2018, 03:27:47
Ok I have a way to fix this flexibility issue with the chakra control system I made before but not with a basic character stats and jutsu stats!!

Looking at all examples of jutsu!! there should be 4 types of jutsu per nature!!
Basic jutsu 15
Linked jutsu 5
Rare jutsu.   3
Forbidden jutus 2
25 jutsu per nature

Basic jutsu are set and low levels
Linked are like shikamaru jutsu of shadow possession!! Where you can activate a new jutsu ontop of an existing jutsu, shadow strangle over possession or stitching over strangle!!
Rare jutsu can have pre sets that can change the size and range but not power
And
Forbidden is obviously leathal or harmful to the caster for increased power or OP Effect!!

However basic class of jutsu should have 3 of each skill rank genin- kage -linked should have 1 of each rank and  rares and fobbidden should be jonin or higher ranks

@Manuster mastering chakra control dose determine what you can learn!! Your characters intelligence determines how fast you learn it!! And How you use it is what makes it unique to you!! You don't need to alter the jutsu to make it unique to you though!! The combination of jutsu you use, where you use them, the ninja tools and Taijutsu you use, and the players you play with will all make your jutsu unique to you!!
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Sjones on January 02, 2018, 04:43:00
Let's end it here.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Manuster on March 29, 2018, 17:11:50
Just read this thread again...it just might be my favourite idea on this site.

I mean this just sums it up really;


"You have a single jutsu that YOU can tweak to your desired level of perfection. I've removed the linear scale of jutsu and granted each individual their own way to "master" a single jutsu. There is literally no perfect version of each jutsu. Do you realise how diverse that is? A single jutsu has been given limitless iterations!

Instead of grinding to get the best version of a jutsu you have to experiment, use and plan it! And once you find your perfect combination then you have the knowledge that literally no one else has that exact same firebreath jutsu! How is that not more rewarding that "oh golly, I've grinded chakra control more than anyone else"
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: The Cliche Cat on March 31, 2018, 12:57:20
Quote from: Manuster on March 29, 2018, 17:11:50
Just read this thread again...it just might be my favourite idea on this site.

I mean this just sums it up really;


"You have a single jutsu that YOU can tweak to your desired level of perfection. I've removed the linear scale of jutsu and granted each individual their own way to "master" a single jutsu. There is literally no perfect version of each jutsu. Do you realise how diverse that is? A single jutsu has been given limitless iterations!

Instead of grinding to get the best version of a jutsu you have to experiment, use and plan it! And once you find your perfect combination then you have the knowledge that literally no one else has that exact same firebreath jutsu! How is that not more rewarding that "oh golly, I've grinded chakra control more than anyone else"

What happens when people learn the metas and just follow the same path that leads to the best iteration of a jutsu? World of Warcraft had a similar thing with talent trees pre-cata. You could put your talent points that you gained every other level into talents that would minorly tweek your stats and sometimes you would be able to learn a new ability the further you went down the talent tree. But this ended up just creating people with the same cookie cutter build because it preformed the best. In theory it was personally customizable but it became something that everyone with your same role and class had.
I do like the idea but how do you make it so people wont copy each other for the best build for a jutsu?
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on April 04, 2018, 11:15:25
You can’t @The Cliche Cat !
People will always try and copy some style they see that works well. However if instead of tweeking jutsu, if you have a multitude of jutsu that work well you will get a verity of good combination and you won’t be able to predict which one they will use.This is why character customization is so important. That way all jutsu can be the best version and the character skills is what gets better and determined what awesome jutsu you can learn.

Ideally you should be able to some extent choose from a combination of change in forms, chakra nature, chakra power, and focuse to discover jutsu(ninjutsu only, fuinjutsu and genjutsu would have other requirements like formula, imagination, extra) And you could only discover the ones you have the skills to perform. But that apparently is to complicated. So sad!!
So it’s not about grinding the most chakra control, but grinding all your skills.

Now that’s not to say that some jutsu might get better effects the more you use them but That should not be the end all be all of jutsu performance. The combinations of jutsu you can use with the resorses and skills you train should be what makes you unique.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Shuninx on April 04, 2018, 18:25:16
I think the hardest thing and at the same time the most interesting thing about this game is how Genjutsu will work. The possibilities are endless if you think about it and it can get very advanced, but then again the Developers might take an easy way out and just make it so you can't move and your screen goes black for a few seconds, I sure hope that doesn't happen. I wonder what they'll eventually do.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: NinjaMirage on April 04, 2018, 20:33:31
Don’t expect too much!! I had huge hopes for this game and if the kenjutsu is any indication genjutsu will be just as week. It’s like the only thing that they polish is map graphics and ninjutsu. Everything else is unimportant. And that’s just sad.
Title: Re: Jutsu Individuality and Flexibility
Post by: Shuninx on April 06, 2018, 21:43:13
I haven't given up hope yet, I'm just sticking around to see what happens and look at the forums & discord. I just see a lot of potential but I'm not gonna put my hopes too high too avoid disappointment.